from a great fan, pls Google “Whataboutism, “Moral Balancing,” “HUMAN SHIELD,” Holocaust, pogroms, Pale of Settlement (precursor for “beyond the pale”), Crusades, Inquisition, Jewish (8 millenia!) DIASPORA (exile). 1948’s attempted -- true -- “Final Solution,” the “Partition Resolution” #181, was NOT an “OCCUPATION” – which BTWay the West Bank settlements probably are. Even if you don't see the 8 millenia's urgent need for a Jewish state, should Israelis just grin & bear atrocites (even "merely" missiles) by humanly shielded (ergo war criminals) Hamas -- who also persist in causing impoverishment of 2 million Gazan.s Heard of "self-defense"? Marty Rosenthal, MA, grandson of 4 pogrom refugees
Yes, very aware of the scourge of whataboutism but this is not that. This is trying to open people's minds to the fact that just because one side is very bad, that does not make the other side very good. It is possible to condemn horrible acts on the side of Hamas AND on the side of Israel. There are many shades to the current war. Yes, there were the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, all those things you mention were horrific. But so is killing civilians from a motorcycle and/or from a fighter jet. Here's some food current for thought: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/in-the-israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-is-losing-at-home.html
amazing of you to reply! Netanyahu’s what we called when I was in law-school (during Vietnam War & Nixon) a Fascist Pig, & terrible for Israel, esp’y worsening the awful W.Bank settlements, not to mention trying to “kill all the lawyers” (a quote misunderstood for is context) – and he & his fellow F/P maniacs likely made the invasion worse. he’s smarter than, but almost (~95%) as bad as Trump.
And, sorry, but Israel's actually IMHO"very good," unless one is willfully blind to my point: The central -- zero-sum to Hamas -- conundrum is the "need" for a Jewish state. West Bank aside, that basic/central issue -- called by opponents an “occupation” [sic, since the Jews didn’t “invade” or “conquer”) -- perpetuates widespread pure Antisemitic hatred by some Palestinians, which only a very small % of Netanyahu-ites share towards non-terrorist Palestinians. Again re a Jewish state, see (above) diaspora-etc, and innumerable stories of Antisemitism, including to my family in USA, & all my grandparents being pogrom refugees to USA . I’m holding out, if not “hope” [cf Ben Franklin, hope, & farting), a “2-state” fantasy.
As for civilians (at least “reluctantly," not geefully) killed by Israel, w/ Hamas’s rampant “human shield” (war crimes), as well as the past week’s other ones, as well as intermittent missiles (killing civilians), is Israel the world's only nation that can't have self-defense? So, what, the Jews should "simply" leave? Turn the other cheek? G[rone] & bear it? This week, Hamas Commander, Muhammed Deif offered, “Remove this filth fr your land & sacred places.”
So it's ok for others to be horrific, if in the past, but it is NOT ok for the victim to do what it must to stop the horror? Do you see why this is a fraught choice that Israel does not want to make but which it has to do to stop the cycle? Israel gave warnings, waited, Arab nations did NOTHING to help Palestinians. Hamas sneaked in and raped, beheaded, murdered babies and elders, took hostages and brutalized the women (always that.). So? Who cares? We don't care about Israeli victims, it's just another prom or holocaust. But we Care about Palestinian victims. Do you see the fallacy here?
NO ONE HELPS the Palestinians but Israel gives them warning, time to leave. Israel could not also give them escape because Israel is not Egypt. Or any other Arab nation. WHO will stop HAMAS then?
War does not HAVE Good guys and Bad guys. All fairness is off the table in war. Is the US a good guy in WWII? NO. after it was OVER we obliterated TWO Japanese CIVILIAN cities. We have done our share of vicious stuff. Tell me why we bombed two cities after Japan was done. No warning even. But Israel warned, waited, repeat. I don't understand why that is of no consequence and no one "gets" why Hamas has to be hunted down. Hamas hides behind Palestinians, cynically, because it bets everyone will pressure Israel to let it go. And you are falling for it. So this will all continue to "happen."
Why isn't Egypt considered obstructionist to Palestinians? Because, Hamas. Hamas will do anything. It knows we won't. It bets Israel will lose credibility because it WILL, and be vilified.
I have trouble with, Hamas did a war crime and so did Israel for bombing a hospital... So. Israel needs to NOT do all that, and see Hamas sit comfy for its next obscenely vicious attack on Israel's civilians, babies, grandparents, young women. What is to stop Hamas? Nothing. Are YOU or Sweden or Russia or America going to go in and drag Hamas out of its tunnels under the hospitals and frog-march them to World Court? Help us understand HOW you will do that without bombing the tunnels built under the hospitals. Y'know, so YOU would be Better Than Israel and not hurt the innocents Hamas hides beneath. Will you, what, leave rat poison for Hamas? Bomb Iran to shut off Hamas' money which didn't go to the hospital? Do you see why Israel has concluded that to get Hamas rooted out, it had to warn civilians to LEAVE so it could go after Hamas? Do you see why Hamas hides behind a hospital?
Great toon based on the military activities. To my mind it doesn't begin to deal with all the underlying issues and strong emotions. Hamas vowed objective is to wipe the Israel from the earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter). It is not a government and doubtful that it is concerned about the welfare of the Gazans considering reports of stealing humanitarian aid and placing weapons in tunnels under hospitals. They knew what the action Israeli would take and considering that Netanyahu is right wing, hoped that he would retaliate big time. They were begging him to kill their civilians to create a negative reaction by the world and UN and create the illusion of Israel being a bully. That the terrorists according to video evidence saw their activities as fun and took great pleasure in butchering civilians was intentionally done to provoke Israel. No one country's behavior is perfect or always "moral" (US atomic bombing of Hiroshima, our decimation of the American indigenous, napalming Viet Nam, slavery).
Let's think about the reaction of the US after the World Trade Center bombing. Proportionate? The big difference is that imo, the world for the most part does not fully recognize that Israel is a sovereign nation. Most nations are focused on survival and also ensuring their citizens (voters) that they will be better protected. By virtue of beating up Israel about its response, begs the question, why they are not concerned about its survival and the importance of taking retribution for what was done to it.
FYI, I am Jewish but also do care about the price civilians pay when their governments (or terrorists) go hunting bear and the bear responds.
I hope you will remember, my criticism of your "bad guys" comment was that it **minimized** terrorists. "Bad Guys" is what children call threatening adults. That is what I meant about it being minimized. "Bad guys" don't murder babies in front of their mothers; depraved, savage terrorists do. The two are NOT equivalent! I know that frequently people when dealing with horrific information, will talk about it in minimizing terms, even make nervous jokes; not because they are insensitive, but because they don't know what to do with the absolute horror; they've never before experienced it.. As a cartoonist I think it would be wise to learn more about the psychology of how people attempt to cope with horrific, existential, threats. Israelis (many related to or themselves are, survivors of the Holocaust) know too well. They live in a country established after the Holocaust as a **safe** place, homeland, for Jews to live in peace, given to them after WWII. They know what it feels like to be trapped, hopeless, the target of hate, to have no place where anyone wants you. And Jews know how overwhelming the responsibility is to protect our people and also to use that power judiciously and carefully. I didn't miss that you pointed out acts of war crimes and terror. I objected to HOW you described them. I'm pretty familiar with criticism, its intentions, uses, and receptions. AS you point out, it has it uses. However, when people have lost basic safety, the best response is empathy and support.
There is NO equivalence between killing babies and civilians at a concert and Israel army going after Hamas leadership. No other country would put up with missiles being fired at them.
So what DO you think Israel OUGHT to do here? Israel is committed to minimize damage to innocent people. They aren't doing a surprise assault. They notified Palestinian people to leave, that there will be an attack by Israel. They leafleted to inform people. They are NOT going after Palestinians because Israel knows that it is Hamas that is their enemy; it is Hamas that hides behind Palestinian women and children. Israel's actions and troops are being followed by news crews from America, and other countries. Hamas remains hidden in tunnels under Gaza. Israel has sent in small teams to search for Hamas. Those "Bad Guys" are hiding behind people who have NO ARAB COUNTRY offering asylum, trying to help them evacuate. Egypt has closed its border to them because it doesn't want Hamas to sneak in. Ditto in the North. HAMAS has all the choices here. Israel is showing restraint. I can't understand why you insist on blaming the country that was attacked, and that you also think they should not respond. Yet Arab states do not want Hamas either. I don't know what Israel bombed, and neither do you. I would hope it would not bomb hospitals and residential buildings. It IS bombing military targets of Hamas militants. But it has held off on a ground invasion, to its credit but also detriment. But I've been in a war zone and know well combatants don't make humanitarian, generous, offers or moves very often; it's everyone for themselves. The REAL blame must go on Hamas for attacking Israel by surprise, aiming for innocent citizens and infants and raping women, then hiding behind Palestinains whom they thus put in the crossfire. What did they THINK Israel would do?! I think they are actually baiting Israel, setting up a war with Lebanon, Syria, anyone else. My upset with you is your heavy criticism of Israel, our only democratic ally in the Middle East, for their REACTION to a surprise, vicious attack by Hamas, a known, terrorist organization with a long history, and which no Arab group wants in its midst either. You 'mention' Hamas' terror campaign. but you focus heavy criticism on Israel's **reaction to being attacked, and show no empathy for Israeli young people, children, women, old people who were the sole target of Hamas' attack. Hamas could end this RIGHT NOW. But it prefers to hide among Palestinian families, in tunnels. it isn't helping the people, it is taking advantage of their pathetic situation. You may not realize it, but Hamas is focused solely on killing every Jew in Israel. It has shown it will sacrifice Palestinians to do that.
I totally agree with you that Hamas is evil and has committed terrible terrorist acts. Where we disagree is that I shouldn't be able to criticize Israel's military response and its awful repercussions. (Again, we should be able to condemn terrorist actions AND criticize military errors or overreaction.) I agree with you that Hamas baited Israel into this response. Isn't that reason enough to question the tactical wisdom of Israel's response? I never said Israel should do nothing, I'm all for going after Hamas leadership. Again, targeting mosques, hospitals, aid groups, etc. and using weapons that violate international law is not helping Israel to win this war or defeat Hamas. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
Besides being just plain wrong, this is what worries me and will surely lead to blowback for Israel: “Israel is dropping in less than a week what the U.S. was dropping in Afghanistan in a year, in a much smaller, much more densely populated area, where mistakes are going to be magnified,” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/israel-seeks-end-hamas-gaza-war/
If this is "Israel showing restraint" I shudder to think about what will happen when they take the gloves off. (Which they are about to do with a ground invasion.)
Again, criticism of Israeli military strategy does not mean I support Hamas or love terrorists, I WANT Israel to succeed.
How about this for a start: go after Hamas leadership (instead of collective punishment) and make a Marshall Plan for the Occupied Territories so you don't have millions of people caged next door at 50% unemployment living like trapped like rats in a cage.
There is no equivalence between Hamas murdering civilians and Israel's retaliation. Israel takes great care to limit civilian killing. The reason why Gaza is blockaded is their continued firing of missiles into Israel. If Hamas would spend more money helping their citizens then Gaza would be a better place to live in. And Hamas has not had an election since 2006. WHY DONT YOU MENTION THIS? Hamas is like AlQada
The equivalence is: Hamas and the Israeli govt/IDF are killing civilians. That's it. Agree that Hamas is not the same as Israel but they are both killing. Bombing hospitals and civilian areas is bad, no matter who does it.
Mark! you say yes it's bad what Hamas did to "locations." (See how you avoid looking at the vicious attack on KIDS, young people, at a festival? You can't even say that the young men and women dancing and having fun were brutally kidnapped, murdered on the spot, and worse.) And THEN you opine that Israel is "overreacting" because they are bombing, according to you, hospitals, homes, etc.). So let me ask you now: Hamas did this: surprised, overran hundreds of Jews, and viciously murdered men, women and children, many intentionally tortured. Israel did this: scraped their dead off car mirrors and floors, and strollers, notified families and moved to bury their families. And planned to go after Hamas which is hiding in Gaza using Palestinans for human shields. (Hamas' calling card). So Israel is NOT supposed to find Hamas and root it out? Because if they let them go, Hamas will do this again.They have stated so. I don't see anyone else going after Hamas, do you?
You must have missed the part where I showed dead bodies and terrorized kids on the Israeli side and mentioned Hamas' terror campaign in my written post. I never said Israel should do nothing, just criticized bombing hospitals, residential towers, etc. That's not made up, it has happened before and will happen even worse this go-round. I'm definitely not denying Hamas did horrible things and is brutal. Does Israel have to do the same thing?
Calling Hamas "bad guys" and excoriating Israel for going after them (they are purposely hiding behind the very people they claim to be helping, but aren't: the Palestinians) is like calling the Nazis during WWII "bad guys." You tip your anti-semitism by MINIMIZING what Hamas just did, by calling them a childish "just-kidding" name. Did you happen to listen to what they did to the Jews --children terrorized and brutally murdered, babies murdered, women raped and humiliated then murdered before their own children, men beheaded. Jesus! You are in denial of what was done by Hamas to Israelis. and not for the first time. Or else, you don't actually care if Jews get killed. I would not support your work. You need to do some looking in the mirror and ask yourself WHY you pretend a brutal sneak attack on anyone is merely "bad guys" bad behavior, and not morally outrageous, punishable by the World Court; and that you take responsibility to NEVER minimize to comfort yourself or onlookers who will never face this effort to annihilate them from the face of the earth. tHAT is the "bad guys'" stated mission. It has always been so. They use the Palestinian people, trapped, as human shields. You expect Israel to do nothing? Hamas is not Palestinan. It is ISIS. They are way outta the league of "bad guys." You are (willingly?) tragically uninformed.
Yes, I called them "bad guys," because they are. I also pointed out there acts were war crimes and referred to their acts of terror. Not sure how you missed that. Criticizing a nation for killing civilians and deliberately targeting hospitals, among other clearly civilian areas, does not make me anti-Semitic. Like I said, it is possible (and encouraged) to call out horrific acts carried out by terrorists AND by nations. (See: Iraq War, Afghanistan, Syria, etc, etc.) Criticism does not make you instantly side with terrorists, we are not binary creatures even though we sometimes act like that.
Thanks for reading and commenting though, really -- it's good to be here in a place where people can discuss difficult weighty issues in a civil way.
from a great fan, pls Google “Whataboutism, “Moral Balancing,” “HUMAN SHIELD,” Holocaust, pogroms, Pale of Settlement (precursor for “beyond the pale”), Crusades, Inquisition, Jewish (8 millenia!) DIASPORA (exile). 1948’s attempted -- true -- “Final Solution,” the “Partition Resolution” #181, was NOT an “OCCUPATION” – which BTWay the West Bank settlements probably are. Even if you don't see the 8 millenia's urgent need for a Jewish state, should Israelis just grin & bear atrocites (even "merely" missiles) by humanly shielded (ergo war criminals) Hamas -- who also persist in causing impoverishment of 2 million Gazan.s Heard of "self-defense"? Marty Rosenthal, MA, grandson of 4 pogrom refugees
Yes, very aware of the scourge of whataboutism but this is not that. This is trying to open people's minds to the fact that just because one side is very bad, that does not make the other side very good. It is possible to condemn horrible acts on the side of Hamas AND on the side of Israel. There are many shades to the current war. Yes, there were the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, all those things you mention were horrific. But so is killing civilians from a motorcycle and/or from a fighter jet. Here's some food current for thought: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/in-the-israel-hamas-war-netanyahu-is-losing-at-home.html
amazing of you to reply! Netanyahu’s what we called when I was in law-school (during Vietnam War & Nixon) a Fascist Pig, & terrible for Israel, esp’y worsening the awful W.Bank settlements, not to mention trying to “kill all the lawyers” (a quote misunderstood for is context) – and he & his fellow F/P maniacs likely made the invasion worse. he’s smarter than, but almost (~95%) as bad as Trump.
And, sorry, but Israel's actually IMHO"very good," unless one is willfully blind to my point: The central -- zero-sum to Hamas -- conundrum is the "need" for a Jewish state. West Bank aside, that basic/central issue -- called by opponents an “occupation” [sic, since the Jews didn’t “invade” or “conquer”) -- perpetuates widespread pure Antisemitic hatred by some Palestinians, which only a very small % of Netanyahu-ites share towards non-terrorist Palestinians. Again re a Jewish state, see (above) diaspora-etc, and innumerable stories of Antisemitism, including to my family in USA, & all my grandparents being pogrom refugees to USA . I’m holding out, if not “hope” [cf Ben Franklin, hope, & farting), a “2-state” fantasy.
As for civilians (at least “reluctantly," not geefully) killed by Israel, w/ Hamas’s rampant “human shield” (war crimes), as well as the past week’s other ones, as well as intermittent missiles (killing civilians), is Israel the world's only nation that can't have self-defense? So, what, the Jews should "simply" leave? Turn the other cheek? G[rone] & bear it? This week, Hamas Commander, Muhammed Deif offered, “Remove this filth fr your land & sacred places.”
Otherwise KUTG(great)Work.
So it's ok for others to be horrific, if in the past, but it is NOT ok for the victim to do what it must to stop the horror? Do you see why this is a fraught choice that Israel does not want to make but which it has to do to stop the cycle? Israel gave warnings, waited, Arab nations did NOTHING to help Palestinians. Hamas sneaked in and raped, beheaded, murdered babies and elders, took hostages and brutalized the women (always that.). So? Who cares? We don't care about Israeli victims, it's just another prom or holocaust. But we Care about Palestinian victims. Do you see the fallacy here?
NO ONE HELPS the Palestinians but Israel gives them warning, time to leave. Israel could not also give them escape because Israel is not Egypt. Or any other Arab nation. WHO will stop HAMAS then?
War does not HAVE Good guys and Bad guys. All fairness is off the table in war. Is the US a good guy in WWII? NO. after it was OVER we obliterated TWO Japanese CIVILIAN cities. We have done our share of vicious stuff. Tell me why we bombed two cities after Japan was done. No warning even. But Israel warned, waited, repeat. I don't understand why that is of no consequence and no one "gets" why Hamas has to be hunted down. Hamas hides behind Palestinians, cynically, because it bets everyone will pressure Israel to let it go. And you are falling for it. So this will all continue to "happen."
Why isn't Egypt considered obstructionist to Palestinians? Because, Hamas. Hamas will do anything. It knows we won't. It bets Israel will lose credibility because it WILL, and be vilified.
I have trouble with, Hamas did a war crime and so did Israel for bombing a hospital... So. Israel needs to NOT do all that, and see Hamas sit comfy for its next obscenely vicious attack on Israel's civilians, babies, grandparents, young women. What is to stop Hamas? Nothing. Are YOU or Sweden or Russia or America going to go in and drag Hamas out of its tunnels under the hospitals and frog-march them to World Court? Help us understand HOW you will do that without bombing the tunnels built under the hospitals. Y'know, so YOU would be Better Than Israel and not hurt the innocents Hamas hides beneath. Will you, what, leave rat poison for Hamas? Bomb Iran to shut off Hamas' money which didn't go to the hospital? Do you see why Israel has concluded that to get Hamas rooted out, it had to warn civilians to LEAVE so it could go after Hamas? Do you see why Hamas hides behind a hospital?
Great toon based on the military activities. To my mind it doesn't begin to deal with all the underlying issues and strong emotions. Hamas vowed objective is to wipe the Israel from the earth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter). It is not a government and doubtful that it is concerned about the welfare of the Gazans considering reports of stealing humanitarian aid and placing weapons in tunnels under hospitals. They knew what the action Israeli would take and considering that Netanyahu is right wing, hoped that he would retaliate big time. They were begging him to kill their civilians to create a negative reaction by the world and UN and create the illusion of Israel being a bully. That the terrorists according to video evidence saw their activities as fun and took great pleasure in butchering civilians was intentionally done to provoke Israel. No one country's behavior is perfect or always "moral" (US atomic bombing of Hiroshima, our decimation of the American indigenous, napalming Viet Nam, slavery).
Let's think about the reaction of the US after the World Trade Center bombing. Proportionate? The big difference is that imo, the world for the most part does not fully recognize that Israel is a sovereign nation. Most nations are focused on survival and also ensuring their citizens (voters) that they will be better protected. By virtue of beating up Israel about its response, begs the question, why they are not concerned about its survival and the importance of taking retribution for what was done to it.
FYI, I am Jewish but also do care about the price civilians pay when their governments (or terrorists) go hunting bear and the bear responds.
I will no longer watch your cartoon's. Take me off all your lists
Sorry to see you go. Glad we were able to at least have a civil discussion before you left. I'll unsubscribe you now.
I hope you will remember, my criticism of your "bad guys" comment was that it **minimized** terrorists. "Bad Guys" is what children call threatening adults. That is what I meant about it being minimized. "Bad guys" don't murder babies in front of their mothers; depraved, savage terrorists do. The two are NOT equivalent! I know that frequently people when dealing with horrific information, will talk about it in minimizing terms, even make nervous jokes; not because they are insensitive, but because they don't know what to do with the absolute horror; they've never before experienced it.. As a cartoonist I think it would be wise to learn more about the psychology of how people attempt to cope with horrific, existential, threats. Israelis (many related to or themselves are, survivors of the Holocaust) know too well. They live in a country established after the Holocaust as a **safe** place, homeland, for Jews to live in peace, given to them after WWII. They know what it feels like to be trapped, hopeless, the target of hate, to have no place where anyone wants you. And Jews know how overwhelming the responsibility is to protect our people and also to use that power judiciously and carefully. I didn't miss that you pointed out acts of war crimes and terror. I objected to HOW you described them. I'm pretty familiar with criticism, its intentions, uses, and receptions. AS you point out, it has it uses. However, when people have lost basic safety, the best response is empathy and support.
There is NO equivalence between killing babies and civilians at a concert and Israel army going after Hamas leadership. No other country would put up with missiles being fired at them.
Yes, you're right. But there is an equivalence between killing babies and civilians and "going after Hamas leadership" by firing white phosphorus in a crowded civilian area. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
Or hospitals, mosques and aid organizations. Ask the WHO, the UN & Human Rights Watch. I'm not making this stuff up, promise: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/israel-strikes-gaza-map-population-destruction/
I'm all for going after the Hamas leadership.
So what DO you think Israel OUGHT to do here? Israel is committed to minimize damage to innocent people. They aren't doing a surprise assault. They notified Palestinian people to leave, that there will be an attack by Israel. They leafleted to inform people. They are NOT going after Palestinians because Israel knows that it is Hamas that is their enemy; it is Hamas that hides behind Palestinian women and children. Israel's actions and troops are being followed by news crews from America, and other countries. Hamas remains hidden in tunnels under Gaza. Israel has sent in small teams to search for Hamas. Those "Bad Guys" are hiding behind people who have NO ARAB COUNTRY offering asylum, trying to help them evacuate. Egypt has closed its border to them because it doesn't want Hamas to sneak in. Ditto in the North. HAMAS has all the choices here. Israel is showing restraint. I can't understand why you insist on blaming the country that was attacked, and that you also think they should not respond. Yet Arab states do not want Hamas either. I don't know what Israel bombed, and neither do you. I would hope it would not bomb hospitals and residential buildings. It IS bombing military targets of Hamas militants. But it has held off on a ground invasion, to its credit but also detriment. But I've been in a war zone and know well combatants don't make humanitarian, generous, offers or moves very often; it's everyone for themselves. The REAL blame must go on Hamas for attacking Israel by surprise, aiming for innocent citizens and infants and raping women, then hiding behind Palestinains whom they thus put in the crossfire. What did they THINK Israel would do?! I think they are actually baiting Israel, setting up a war with Lebanon, Syria, anyone else. My upset with you is your heavy criticism of Israel, our only democratic ally in the Middle East, for their REACTION to a surprise, vicious attack by Hamas, a known, terrorist organization with a long history, and which no Arab group wants in its midst either. You 'mention' Hamas' terror campaign. but you focus heavy criticism on Israel's **reaction to being attacked, and show no empathy for Israeli young people, children, women, old people who were the sole target of Hamas' attack. Hamas could end this RIGHT NOW. But it prefers to hide among Palestinian families, in tunnels. it isn't helping the people, it is taking advantage of their pathetic situation. You may not realize it, but Hamas is focused solely on killing every Jew in Israel. It has shown it will sacrifice Palestinians to do that.
I totally agree with you that Hamas is evil and has committed terrible terrorist acts. Where we disagree is that I shouldn't be able to criticize Israel's military response and its awful repercussions. (Again, we should be able to condemn terrorist actions AND criticize military errors or overreaction.) I agree with you that Hamas baited Israel into this response. Isn't that reason enough to question the tactical wisdom of Israel's response? I never said Israel should do nothing, I'm all for going after Hamas leadership. Again, targeting mosques, hospitals, aid groups, etc. and using weapons that violate international law is not helping Israel to win this war or defeat Hamas. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/12/israel-white-phosphorus-used-gaza-lebanon
Besides being just plain wrong, this is what worries me and will surely lead to blowback for Israel: “Israel is dropping in less than a week what the U.S. was dropping in Afghanistan in a year, in a much smaller, much more densely populated area, where mistakes are going to be magnified,” https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/israel-seeks-end-hamas-gaza-war/
And, yes, they are bombing hospitals, residential buildings and mosques: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/12/israel-strikes-gaza-map-population-destruction/
If this is "Israel showing restraint" I shudder to think about what will happen when they take the gloves off. (Which they are about to do with a ground invasion.)
Again, criticism of Israeli military strategy does not mean I support Hamas or love terrorists, I WANT Israel to succeed.
How about this for a start: go after Hamas leadership (instead of collective punishment) and make a Marshall Plan for the Occupied Territories so you don't have millions of people caged next door at 50% unemployment living like trapped like rats in a cage.
There is no equivalence between Hamas murdering civilians and Israel's retaliation. Israel takes great care to limit civilian killing. The reason why Gaza is blockaded is their continued firing of missiles into Israel. If Hamas would spend more money helping their citizens then Gaza would be a better place to live in. And Hamas has not had an election since 2006. WHY DONT YOU MENTION THIS? Hamas is like AlQada
The equivalence is: Hamas and the Israeli govt/IDF are killing civilians. That's it. Agree that Hamas is not the same as Israel but they are both killing. Bombing hospitals and civilian areas is bad, no matter who does it.
An eye for an eye and the whole world becomes blind. Mohandas Gandhi
Mark! you say yes it's bad what Hamas did to "locations." (See how you avoid looking at the vicious attack on KIDS, young people, at a festival? You can't even say that the young men and women dancing and having fun were brutally kidnapped, murdered on the spot, and worse.) And THEN you opine that Israel is "overreacting" because they are bombing, according to you, hospitals, homes, etc.). So let me ask you now: Hamas did this: surprised, overran hundreds of Jews, and viciously murdered men, women and children, many intentionally tortured. Israel did this: scraped their dead off car mirrors and floors, and strollers, notified families and moved to bury their families. And planned to go after Hamas which is hiding in Gaza using Palestinans for human shields. (Hamas' calling card). So Israel is NOT supposed to find Hamas and root it out? Because if they let them go, Hamas will do this again.They have stated so. I don't see anyone else going after Hamas, do you?
You must have missed the part where I showed dead bodies and terrorized kids on the Israeli side and mentioned Hamas' terror campaign in my written post. I never said Israel should do nothing, just criticized bombing hospitals, residential towers, etc. That's not made up, it has happened before and will happen even worse this go-round. I'm definitely not denying Hamas did horrible things and is brutal. Does Israel have to do the same thing?
Calling Hamas "bad guys" and excoriating Israel for going after them (they are purposely hiding behind the very people they claim to be helping, but aren't: the Palestinians) is like calling the Nazis during WWII "bad guys." You tip your anti-semitism by MINIMIZING what Hamas just did, by calling them a childish "just-kidding" name. Did you happen to listen to what they did to the Jews --children terrorized and brutally murdered, babies murdered, women raped and humiliated then murdered before their own children, men beheaded. Jesus! You are in denial of what was done by Hamas to Israelis. and not for the first time. Or else, you don't actually care if Jews get killed. I would not support your work. You need to do some looking in the mirror and ask yourself WHY you pretend a brutal sneak attack on anyone is merely "bad guys" bad behavior, and not morally outrageous, punishable by the World Court; and that you take responsibility to NEVER minimize to comfort yourself or onlookers who will never face this effort to annihilate them from the face of the earth. tHAT is the "bad guys'" stated mission. It has always been so. They use the Palestinian people, trapped, as human shields. You expect Israel to do nothing? Hamas is not Palestinan. It is ISIS. They are way outta the league of "bad guys." You are (willingly?) tragically uninformed.
Yes, I called them "bad guys," because they are. I also pointed out there acts were war crimes and referred to their acts of terror. Not sure how you missed that. Criticizing a nation for killing civilians and deliberately targeting hospitals, among other clearly civilian areas, does not make me anti-Semitic. Like I said, it is possible (and encouraged) to call out horrific acts carried out by terrorists AND by nations. (See: Iraq War, Afghanistan, Syria, etc, etc.) Criticism does not make you instantly side with terrorists, we are not binary creatures even though we sometimes act like that.
Thanks for reading and commenting though, really -- it's good to be here in a place where people can discuss difficult weighty issues in a civil way.